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Time for a new hobby.
My wife just found out that she is getting ready to purchase my first fly rod set-up (Christmas present) so I can hunt muskies/pike/big trout with it.....big tackle only, of course.
The only major problem I am having so far is if I should go with a St. Croix or Orvis? Or does it really matter?
Any input is welcomed.
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Red,
You just HAD to know that you'd get some info from me. LOL Right now, I have Temple Forks Outfitters and Diamondback rods in 9wts and St.Croix and G-Loomis in 10wts. The 9wts are nice for smaller Musky/Pike flies but don't cut it for me with the 8"+ flies or bulky flies. I love the Diamondback (use those for trout rods too) but am not a big fan of the Temple Forks. The cork on the handle started falling apart almost immediately and its like casting a fly with conventional gear since its so stiff. For the 10wts, the St.Croix is my favorite by far. It casts all the flies I have without too much of an issue. Id replace them all with St. Croix if I had the money. LOL I am not a fan of Orvis but its for personal reasons and not really anything to do with the quality of their products. So ultimately, I guess you're getting my vote for St. Croix. Theres also recently been some rods designed specifically for Pike/Musky. I believe one is called a Pike Sabre and the Echo Ion. I've heard very good things about both of them.
Once you get an idea of what rods you might be interested in, make sure to spend the extra cash and pick up some quality flyline. I was shocked at how much of a difference the line makes when it comes to casting these behemoth flies all day. I'm currently using Airflo lines on my 10wts and love them. I've heard good things about Sharkskin from Scientific Anglers too but have yet to try it. Will probably pick some up over the Winter.
You're gonna love this new hobby!!
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I have been eyeballing the Imperial rod and will prolly pull the trigger on it and match it with a Hydros #6 large arbor reel. Thanks for the feedback!
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Cool, I've heard great things about the Hydros reels!! Once you get into this, maybe you can give me some hints and tips on setting the hook on topwater flies as these fish have just been torturing me on that front. LOL
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By the way, theres a show called "The New Flyfisher" on Sundays on PBS around 5 or 5:30pm. They mix it up quite a bit but fish for Pike fairly regularly and just had some Musky on the fly this past weekend. Usually not an entire episode dedicated to it, but its still pretty decent.
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Since I am very inexperienced with this, I am having difficulties purchasing everything I need: line type, leaders, etc.....
Going to be spending lots of time on the phone this weekend with a few "musky on the fly" guides. I have found tons of info but just need to sift through it all.
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I know that feeling. I was lucky early on that I got to talk to a guy out in Wisconsin who was more than happy to offer his advice. The Musky on the Fly book is fantastic too if you can find a copy to peruse. If not, let me know, I could let you borrow mine. Just a wealth of info for all stages of flyfishing experience.
Just another note about flyline. I've found that an intermediate line with a clear slow sinking tip works for just about all situations that I normally run into. I have floating lines and full sinking lines also, but never seem to use them anymore. However, I could see a full sinking line being a good addition for river fishing to help get the fly down faster in current.
People are using just about every combination you can think of for leaders. I've been using a basic 3-6' section of 30-40# mono tied to my wire bite tippet. This season I've used a pre-tied wire tippet (American Fishing Wire) that has a swivel for ease of fly changing. Its worked out rather well but I have yet to tie into a real beast with that tippet. Until then, I can't say its gonna be my go to. Good luck with the research and drop me a line if you have any questions I might be able to help with.
Jay
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I might just have the same Wisconsonite in mind to call tomorrow.......Brad Bohen. He is one of the best musky-on-the-fly guys there is.
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LOL Actually the guy I originally spoke with was Bill Sherer. He runs a website and guide service out there. Funny that you mention brad though because I actually owe him a return call because I tried gettin a hold of him a little while back and we played phone tag. He definitely seems like the go-to-guy for Musky on the fly stuff. They put out an awesome DVD not too long ago. Wow, they get into some beasts. If you could, ask him if his Musky flies are for sale on-line yet. No biggie if you forget, but that was one of the reasons I tried to contact him. That crew that he fishes with seems like a hoot!!
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I will mention it to him and get back to you soon.
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New hobby....no you have two illnesses....muskyitus and fly rod mania. No hope.
I use a 10 wt (cabelas) and a 9 wt (Orvis) for Musky with floating saltwater taper line. Line is a huge factor in my opinion as you need all the help you can get to cast huge flies. The reel is not all that big a deal to me as long as it has a decent drag and can carry the line and backing and it balances the rod. The handle is a big deal for me (I build my own rods) and like a particular style of fighting butt and handle taper. I also add an extra large stripper guide. Casting takes practice. I've been pre-rigging flies with a short loop leader section(heavy mono) as a bite guard. I've also used multistrand coated wire (bought at the craft store).
For trout when I'm using big streamers, I use a 7 wt and here the leader becomes more of a concern as you need to balance diameter, stiffness, and strength. For river trout, a large arbor reel and a smooth drag are nice to have as you'll get some decent runs from bigger trout. Here the blank stiffness makes a difference. I have a moderately stiff rod. Stiffer rods cast in the wind better but are less forgiving in terms of breaking off fish.
I have no brand preference. (I have Orivis, St Croix, Pacific Bay, Sage) It's nice to have a good warranty. Fly rod tips are a little less durable than a musky casting rod.
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Looks like the St. Croix Imperial 9ft/10wt. coupled with the Orvis Hydros #6 large arbor reel will be in Santas bag.
Let the madness begin.
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Awesome man!! Can't wait to hear some of those early reports on the Toothy Critter action. I'll have to see how my Spring looks. I might have to book a trip with you and we can Tag-Team that river with some serious Fly action!!
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Sounds great, Jay.
I have a serious learning curve to overcome first......planning on spending plenty of time in this gym this winter before/after-school practicing my casting.
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To be honest, I'm guessin you're probably gonna be better off than I was, at least on casting those big flies and hook setting. At least you shouldn't be burdened by almost 20yrs of "bad trout habits" that you'd have to overcome!! LOL
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Red,
Don't forget your fly wallets! 
. BTW, I won a 9' 9wt this fall Jay so I am going to try to hunt some fish. What do you use as leader? I was thinking just straight 30# mono but was not sure. Red, good luck, I am sure that you will be posting a pic of a beast in no time!!
Jacob
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I can certainly vouch for those Fly wallets. I have 4 of em filled with flies!! LOL Seriously though, they do a great job of storing flies with the wool inside them.
In terms of leaders, I tie the 30-40# mono (3-4' with a clear tip flyline, 4-6' for regular flyline) to the fly line and then about 12" of some sort of tie-able wire. I'm a fan of American Fishing Wire products. I've had good luck with their titanium wire and am currently about 4 months into experimenting with their Wire Bleeding Leaders which are pre-tied and include a snap lok to make fly changes a lot easier. I've had good luck with them so far. However, I did have one break on me just in the process of casting. Hoping that was a fluke, but we'll see. I did try another coated wire that kinked WAY too easily. Can't think of the name right now. All I remember is that it was green in color. LOL
Congrats on winning the flyrod!! I'm hoping to get out your way in the Spring again. If so, I'll give you a shout and we can try gettin some more fishing in.
Jay
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I am hearing great things about this leader material. Does anyone have a comment about it??
http://www.tygerleader.com/
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Red,
Thats the stuff that I had kinking/coiling issues with. However, I mainly tried using the 15# for throwing surface flies which tend to spin quite a bit during casting. I wanted the lower #-test to try and avoid causing the front of the fly to sink. It may be that the 30# and up is just fine. Also, that was a couple of years back that I tried it, could be that they have improved things since then. Just something to keep in mind. Also, I know a lot of people are using Fluoro with a lot of success. I'm still on the fence with that as I'd hate a sharp tooth or gill plate cut that line with a monster fish on the line.
Jay
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If I went with Fluoro for a fly leader, I would not feel comfortable with anything less than 150#........I am betting I am going to see deeper hooked fish with the fly approach versus conventional tackle.
Will the heavier fluoro leaders (150-200#) inhibit casting or not??
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At this point, I don't have a huge sample set of Musky caught on flies to give a conclusive statistical picture, but I personally have not had issues with deeply hooked fish. Most of the time, the fly has popped out in the net before I even get to the release tools. I hope I'm not cursing myself by saying that, but the fact that I pinch all the barbs down I'm sure comes into play there also. As you know, I'm still new to this too, so I'm learning as I go.
I have not tried fluoro on the flyrods as of yet. As I mentioned, I'm just not comfortable with it at this point. Me actually getting a good hookset into a fish has been tough enough, I'd probably cry if my line broke. LOL However, I feel that the stiffness of fluoro at that weight would probably actually help with casting these bigger flies. The main thing would be to make sure that the knot connecting to the fly allows the the fly room to move for action. I'm telling you, when some of those flies move back and forth in the water and just kind of flutter during the pause, I'm not sure how ANY fish can resist them!!
Jay
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If I tied that heavy fluoro directly to the fly, the knot would have enough room for the fly to move somewhat. It is hard to cinch that thicker lb.test down super tight.
I was thinking that when the fish blows up and flares on a fly, they would be able to suck it in easier/deeper. I am happy to hear that I am wrong.
I think I will start out with fluoro and see how it goes.
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Jay/Red,
I have also been looking into this line for my leader material http://fishusa.com/DAM-Tectan-Premiu...ilament_p.html. I use the 9.2 lb on steel head and it is GREAT stuff! Skinny, strong, good abrasion resistance, knot strength, I just can't say enough good things about it. I figure I could get some of the upper weights and try them out. Any thoughts on over lining a rod I.E. 10wt line on a 9wt rod to get a little bit easier casting? I have heard multiple talks on it on other boards and thought it may be an idea.... Who knows. Lastly, there is a place called the fly tyers dungeon that has good quality cheap materials for tying big flies.... you do realize that it is the next step right?
Jacob
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I don't post up here much, but just noticed the thread and wanted to give my input.
Myself and several friends have been chasing muskies with fly rods for few years now and have actually had a reasonable amount of success. Actually Red, we saw you one day this summer below Kinzua and you gave us the thumbs up!
For rods, tfo and echo make some nice sticks for the money. The bvk series from tfo is just as nice as the high end rods that cost 3x as much. Super light, with plenty of power. 10 weights are the only way to go.
Reels are not as important as in saltwater, but make sure you get a large arbor to reduce line coiling. A decent drag certainly doesn't hurt. Lamson and Ross make some nice mid level reps that will perform well for years to come.
Lines are, in my eyes, the most important part of the whole system. Shooting head style lines, such as the Rio outbound short or airflo 40+ make throwing huge flies much easier. I personally don't like the bass bug taper based pike/musky lines that are out there, but know a few guys that do. An intermediate line will serve as a good all purpose line, but a full sinker that sinks at any rate faster that 6" per second is very nice to have on rivers and when using bulky, somewhat buoyant flies.
For my leaders, I am using 60 lb mono tapering to 20 lb tippet. On the floating and intermediate lines, 6 to 8' is a good length. On the sinker, 3' is about as long as I go. 80 lb fluoro has survived enough fish that I have confidence in it, but bite-offs could certainly happen. I connect the fly with a loop knot to improve movement. I have used wire, but am not a fan of how it handles and holds up throughout the day.
Flies that have moved fish for us have ranged from bass poppers to 14" wash cloths. Plan on throwing flies 7" and up. You know the baits that move fish and will probably be suprised what is out there fly design wise that imitates conventional stuff.
Of course, you could always take me for a spin in that rocket ship of yours and we could discuss this further...Haha.
Good luck and don't forget to buy some frozen vegetables to ice your wrist and shoulder down after throwing the big stuff all day!
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Red,
It could be that I've just been fortunate at this point with the fish that I've landed. I'm sure I'll run into some that have just completely inhaled the flies too, so its definitely a possibility.
Jacob,
I am not familiar with that line. However, with all of the different combinations I have seen being used, I'd think its definitely worth checking into. In terms of overweighting the line, I am a big fan of doing that on most of my flyrods that I feel a need to optimize my casting distance. However, my 10wts are matched with Airflo 10wt line and they cast very well. I'm finding that some of these lines that are designed for longer casting don't have a need to overweight as much as say a standard weight forward line would. Thanks for the heads up on the place to find tying material. I am still hoping to get into that this Winter.
InTheDrift,
Great info and glad to hear from some other Flyrodders out there
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I can also vouch for the fly wallets too. I wish I had kept mine but I gave it to a local fly fishing friend of mine and he absolutely loves it. I guess I will have to buy another one (or two) from you Jacob...maybe we can hook up at Butler this February and make the exchange.
Inthedrift,
I vividly remember you guys drifting down a particular section of river slinging those big arse flies and thinking it was time for me to get neck-deep into the "fly side" of musky fishing. Anyway, I am planning on buying an extra spool with sinking line before Spring gets here but that plan could change after I get a response from the question below........
Do you guys think I would be better off learning how to cast with the intermediate or sinking line??
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Red,
In my experience, the intermediate line will be easier to learn to cast. The sinking line that I have requires me to use different casting mechanics than what I use for both floating and intermediate lines. If I recall, the sinking line I have is a Cortland product. I'm guessing that there are other sinking lines out there that will be easier to cast but I have used the one so far. I will say this, after using the sinking line for a while, when I switch back to the intermediate, it feels like I'm casting a trout line and can really launch it.
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Red,
I have a 9' 8 wt Imperial St Croix I use for steelies, mostly a back-up now but it's a great value rod. The main difference between this rod and others like it in the price range and the $500-$700 rods is weight and flex. The St Croix rod will load pretty quickly which should benefit you as you won't need to make extremely long casts. I think you'd be happy with this rod, but at some point you'll surely be expanding into other options. It's inevitable with fly fishing. For reels you're going to want a large arbor reel with an excellent drag. IMHO, if this is something you're going to take seriously this is where you should invest your dollars. I have an Orvis Mirage IV in my arsenal which I love. If I was buying an Orvis reel strictly for musky I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a IV in that series. There are other manufacturers that offer excellent drags in less expensive reels. Two for sure are Lamson and Sage. They offer reels in the $200 range with excellent drags; most will have cast bodies in these price points. While I think the Orvise Mirage is a superior reel in many respects, I don't think Orvis's mid priced reels are nearly as suitable for you as some of those offered by others. Lamson's Konic cast body reel for example has the exact same drag system as their top of the line reels. That said I've never tried one but they have excellent reviews. Whatever you get you'll probably want an extra spool so you can quickly adjust sink rates. Also, I'd like to say thanks once again for taking my business associate on the river in such short notice. He had a great time.
Fred Ward
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No problem, Fred......It was a pleasure fishing with you guys except the fish forgot which lure to eat! 
After talking to the Orvis guy yesterday, I changed from a #6 to a #5 Hydros large arbor reel. I feel like I am learning a new language with this stuff!
Thanks for the info.
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I spend the least on reels for all of my flyrod setups because the fish I normally chase will rarely if ever get me even into my backing, including Musky and Pike. However, if you plan to possibly go after some Tarpon, etc...its a good idea to have one with a decent drag system. LOL I know what you mean about learning a new language. I had a lot of learning to do just going from trout gear to Musky gear. Once you get out there and start dealing with the physics of the casting, it'll start making more sense.
From what I have been told, I am somewhat of an "unconventional caster". I guess thats what happens when you just run to the water to learn rather than watching a video or the likes. I've developed my techniques to minimize false casts. So, don't be surprised if you start to develop your own language as you get further into this voyage. Thats part of the fun.
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Red,
It's as complicated as you want to make it, but playing with all the gear can be a lot of fun.
Sinking lines are different to cast and retrieve, but they handle the big flies well. I would start with an intermediate and get a second reel or spool when you get comfortable with casting. Spools can be a pain and I prefer having a whole second rig loaded up for working deep when required, but we are floating and can't always run back upstream to rework an area with a different setup.
Rio outbound shorts are super nice and come in all different sink rates. Like I said before, they will throw a chicken-sized fly a good ways with very little effort compared to other lines that are out there.
While we are on the subject...I'm having a hell of a time keeping fish buttoned up this year. Solid strip strikes and I even follow it up with a second or even third set with the rod to bury it, but have had a few sets just come out. Is anybody else seeing a lot of this with flies? It's hard to swallow, but I get the feeling its just part of the game...
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InTheDrift,
I'm right there with you on issues keepin the fly in those bony mouths after hookset. For me I believe its partly due to the fact that I am still developing my strip strike technique. Recently I've been trying a technique where along with the strip strike, I am also using the casting hand to pull the rod parallel to the water in the opposite direction a little. Its worked on the last couple of fish that I was able to get in the net. I'll have to keep at it to see if its gonna be my goto technique.
On another note, do you fish surface flies a lot?? If so, any advice for hooksetting on them. One of my main focuses this year was to land a fish on a topwater fly. Well, I had PLENTY of chances but came up empty on ALL of the hooksets. I'm trying to be a little more patient before I go into the set, but since these fish are so spread apart, practice has been hard to come by. LOL Just curious to see if you're having better luck with it.
Jay
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While on the subject of hooksetting/losing fish, how much stretch (if any) is there with fly lines?
Many of the fish we have caught/hooked on the fly (while guiding) seem to slurp the fly instead of the normal, crushing attack. Would you guys agree or not?
Jay,
I was watching some video this morning and I noticed the guy was pulling the rod parallel to the water on the strip set multiple times.
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I don't do the topwater thing much and have yet to get a grab doing so. Like any other surface take, a long wait is probably beneficial to making sure the fish has the fly. I've actually been told to do the same with subsurface grabs too, but like you said, there aren't many opportunities to dull the nerves and I usually set quickly after a take.
Waiting for the fish to turn would surely help find some more meat, but more than a few fish have eaten the fly from behind and never turned. To be honest, I think if it is meant to be, it will happen. There are just so many little intricacies to doing this stuff with a fly that really make it so cool.
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Red,
As a complete guess, I'd say there is quite a bit of stretch between having the mono as part of the leader and also the Flyline itself. I don't have any data to back that up, just my hunch according to the materials used to make up those items.
In terms of the strikes I've witnessed, I'd have to say mine are almost split 50/50 leaning a little toward the violent strike on the fly. However, I tend to retrieve the flies as erratically as I can most of the time. The times I usually get the subtle takes are when I'm doing just a methodical type of retrieve.
Yep, I saw a dude Tarpon fishing who was also using that same type of hook set on some TV show that made me want to give it a try. I mean this guy really puts the boots to the fish on hookset and also multiple times. Thats why I believe that I've been too "easy" on them and need to just start puttin eveything I have into that hookset. Once again, those blasted trout techniques are coming back to haunt me. LOL
InTheDrift,
I couldn't agree more! Thats why my brother is always so surprised how calm I am after missing/losing a fish. I'm always just happy that I got the action to begin with. Sure, it would be nice to land them all, but thats just not gonna happen. Thats certainly not gonna stop me from gettin right back at it and whippin that water into a froth!! LOL
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