Musky Q&A

[esoxaddict]

Hey, Steve...

Let's talk a little bit about seasonal patterns. Would you be willing to describe how you target muskies at different times of the year, and how your approach changes throughout the season? Maybe talk a bit about how and why they transition from area to area as the season progresses...

Thanks

Jeff

[Steve Herbeck]

Wow!
When I Get Done I'll Just Cut And Past And Send It In Mh For My 09 Article!!!
I'll Get Started Here But Haven't Got The Time Right Now Maybe A Few Others Can Get Things Started And Give Thier Thoughts And We Can All Learn Something Cause Every System Is A Bit Diff,every Part Of The Country Even Diff Parts Of Lakes Are Diff.,and Fish Do Alot More Things Than What Is In The Book.
Lets Hear It!!

[esoxaddict]

Yeah, that was a big question, wasn't it?


Let's break it down a bit. Specifically talking about Eagle Lake, let's start with the musky opener, and talk about that, and what you see happening, say through the end of June...

[DanR]

Here's the big trick/pattern...

Take a smoke colored Spanky Bait. Find some rocks or weeds. Throw it out and reel it back in.

I couldn't resist.

Sorry, I cannot add any value until we get to the part around late August through October.

-Dan

[esoxaddict]

That's where I'm at too, Dan. I'm pretty familiar with Early August up there, but that's about it. If I have this right, I think generally the fish start out shallow close to the spawning areas in the spring, transition into the adjacent weedy areas after that, and as the water warms up mid summer they'll go deeper and relate more to the bars. Then as the water cools down again in the fall they transition back into some of the shallow structure, presumably looking for warmer water. And generally speaking, if you want to find a hungry musky, follow their food around. I'm pretty familiar with when those trends usually occur in Northern WI, for example, but 400 miles North is a whole different time frame.

[Steve Herbeck]

While Spawning And Doing Thier Thing They Will Be Tough And Should Be Left Alone Anyway At Least Where They Can Sucessfully Spawn. Fortunatly They Are Typically Well Past Spawn By The Time Ontarios Opener Arrives Except Under The Latest Of Springs Followed By A Cold/dark May , Early June And Add Perhaps Deep Lake Trout Type Water.
Look To The Predominate Weedy Structures,weed /rock Combos,points And Shorelines,island Clusters And Slots Near The Mouths And Adjacent Basins For Your First Areas Of Concentrated Action. The Thickest Biggest Patches And Most Complex Areas Can Hold Numbers Of Fish However Muskies During This Time Tend To Be Roamers Constantly Searching For The Prime Holding/feeding Spot As Cover Is Evolving And Emerging.in other words if the spawn is in fact over and there been a bit of time for fish to move out look to the closest summer time spots for the females as they don't tend to hang around spawning areas long.
There Could Be And Most Likely Are Some Fish Still Hanging Around In The Spawning Bays/areas Especially If It Has Been On The Cool Side And You're In A Sunny Warming Trend. these will be mostly males and/But They Will Be Scattered Roamers.it's More For still looking for lost loves,The Sun Bathing,And Also Because About That Time Most Spawning Bays/areas Are Also Areas With Alot Of Walleyes Suckers Perch,etc Gobbling Up Mayfly Larve,flies,and Small Minnows/perch Which Are Typically Starting To Hatch Around Opener.
show girls,fireflys,#8's,flashers,reg size buchertails and harrassers,twitch'n minnow baits and rubber,gliders,and topwaters especially zig zags are top choices.
However What Alot Don't Realize Is That In Some Bodies Of Water Especially Those With A Good Pop Of Pelegic Food Sources Like Lakers,tullibees,whitefish,ciscos,trout There Is A Period Of Recouping In Between Spawns And/or Recouping After That The Bigger Females Retreat To The Closest Deepest Holes Especially If You Have A Cold Front Type Of Early Season. Staging Over 35-70+' Of Water 15-22' Down For Period Of Time Before Coming Back Into The Now Prime Cover.
We Used To Destroy Em Back In Wisc 15-18 Yrs Ago During The Trolling Days In June Especially Under Late Cold Springs But We Could Use 3 Lines And The Basins Avg 800-1500 Acres Where As In A Big Shield Lake It Takes A Lot More Searching Especially With One Line To Find The Areas That Consistantly Hold Fish. A Few Years Back I Boated 2 40# Class Fish Doing This On Eagle But In Recent Years It's Been Tougher To Find Someone Willing To Slug It Out Trolling All Day When Usually There's At Least Some Exciting Topwater/bucktail Casting Going On.
when out here no need to go small ,bigger cranks like gramas,raiders,jakes and bigger spinners like the cowgirls and spankys and spinnerbaits (they will need weight,dipseys,or riggers to get down 15-18')
Greg,brad And Some Of The Others Have also Recently Been Doing This With Some Success During This Time On The Northern Minn Lakes And It Will Work Anywere These Conditions Exist.not A Sure Thing For Most But It Is Something To Consider Especially If No Big Fish Are Showing On Tradtional Structure.

[Steve S WI]

Deepest Holes Especially If You Have A Cold Front Type Of Early Season. Staging Over 35-70+' Of Water 15-22' Down For Period Of Time Before Coming Back Into The Now Prime Cover.
We Used To Destroy Em Back In Wisc 15-18 Yrs Ago During The Trolling Days In June Especially Under Late Cold

Herbie,

You know where I fish in N WI and I have had luck deeper in those WI waters. When I mean deep it was 12 to 18 aroung cribs but am still acting to conservative with the depths? If I hear you right the big girls are roaming suspended in the deeps for a time. For spring i am talking about early June in the Lake Tom and Eagle River area.

Always love your coments and cant wait to see you this year.

[DanR]

However What Alot Don't Realize Is That In Some Bodies Of Water Especially Those With A Good Pop Of Pelegic Food Sources Like Lakers,tullibees,whitefish,ciscos,trout There Is A Period Of Recouping In Between Spawns And/or Recouping After That The Bigger Females Retreat To The Closest Deepest Holes Especially If You Have A Cold Front Type Of Early Season. Staging Over 35-70+' Of Water 15-22' Down For Period Of Time Before Coming Back Into The Now Prime Cover.
We Used To Destroy Em Back In Wisc 15-18 Yrs Ago During The Trolling Days In June Especially Under Late Cold Springs But We Could Use 3 Lines And The Basins Avg 800-1500 Acres Where As In A Big Shield Lake It Takes A Lot More Searching Especially With One Line To Find The Areas That Consistantly Hold Fish. A Few Years Back I Boated 2 40# Class Fish Doing This On Eagle But In Recent Years It's Been Tougher To Find Someone Willing To Slug It Out Trolling All Day When Usually There's At Least Some Exciting Topwater/bucktail Casting Going On.
when out here no need to go small ,bigger cranks like gramas,raiders,jakes and bigger spinners like the cowgirls and spankys and spinnerbaits (they will need weight,dipseys,or riggers to get down 15-18')
Greg,brad And Some Of The Others Have also Recently Been Doing This With Some Success During This Time On The Northern Minn Lakes And It Will Work Anywere These Conditions Exist.not A Sure Thing For Most But It Is Something To Consider Especially If No Big Fish Are Showing On Tradtional Structure.

Herbie,

That is amazing information I wish I had in the past. Wow.

And I will say right now: I am willing to slug it out with you trolling earlier in the season if you think that's a decent shot at a next 40lb white bellied (w/ bright red tail ) monster for me. I have a box of big trolling baits (14" Jakes, 13" Grammas, 14" Believers, etc) and a Trolling Rod, etc.

Chuckie and I have talked about possibly doing a few trips a year. The economy is hampering that dream a bit for now. But I'm going to call him this weekend to see if he ever has interest in doing that.

Thanks for the info man. You should write a book.

-Dan

[Steve Herbeck]

Would Be Great To See Yu A Couple Times A Season!! You Have Several Years But Late Summer And Then Later,maybe Try And Early And Late Summer It's Always Fun To See And Learn New Patterns.
Got Some Openings June 20 (opener) Through July 11 Week. You Auto Get A 2nd Trip Disc And Those Weeks And Remaining Accom Have Additional Discs.
For A 2nd Trip Maybe Just Cut It Back A Day And Or Do It A Bit Cheaper Than You Always Do,at Least You're Fish'n!!!

[Steve Herbeck]

Steveo,
Regardless What You Are Talking About Doing Is Always A Pattern To Check Out,you Got Cover Most Likely On A Break Line So It's A Hwy And A Stop Sign,food,and Those Depths Have Some Security And A Common Depth Muskies Travel And Hang At So It's A Good Choice To Hit Regardless.
% Wise Under Most Conditions Most Of The Time Most Of Your Positively Feeding Musky Activity Will Be Under 20' Or They Will Come Up Regardless If Your Fishing In 4' Or Over 100' Of Water.
Doesn't Mean They Have To Be In 20' Of Water Or Less Though.
Of Course There Are Always Exceptions Especially In 2 Story Fisheries And Just Before And After Turnover So Keep Open Minded.
What I Was Talking About Happens All Season Long Really Just Most Think Early Season Has To Be All Shallow Water.
Shallower Dark Water Lakes Ya But Not Always So With Deeper Clearer Lakes And It Can Be A Definate Movement Made Not An Exception.

[esoxaddict]

[...]
However What Alot Don't Realize Is That In Some Bodies Of Water Especially Those With A Good Pop Of Pelegic Food Sources Like Lakers,tullibees,whitefish,ciscos,trout There Is A Period Of Recouping In Between Spawns And/or Recouping After That The Bigger Females Retreat To The Closest Deepest Holes Especially If You Have A Cold Front Type Of Early Season. Staging Over 35-70+' Of Water 15-22' Down For Period Of Time Before Coming Back Into The Now Prime Cover.
[...]

Steve, do you think that's a response to the lack of cover, and the big girls are just looking for a safe place to recover from the spawn? Or is it just that their main food sources are in those areas and they need to eat and replenish their energy? Maybe some of both?

[Steve Herbeck]

I;m Not A Scientist But Just Observations/experience From Past Years And Bits And Pieces Picked Up From Others Experiences So I Don't Know For Sure If All Do It Or If It's Certain Conditons That Definatly Cause More To Do It. But It Would Make Sense That Security And Food Are Major Factors.
I Have Noticed In The Past That Under Conditions Such As I Described With Colder Springs And Darker Colder Periods Following Spawning Which Typically Results In Cooler Avg Water Temps And Late Weed Cover Growth That The Encounters With Bigger Fish Are Fewer And Farther Between On Classic Shallow Spots For A Longer Period Of Time And When It's Been A Nice Typical Spring /early Summer With Good Warming Water Temps And Thick Emerging Weed Growth The Opposite Seems To Be The Norm And Perhaps The Recoup Period Is Shorter And Or Some Or More Do Not Even Do It.
So Besides Security,food,perhaps More Stable,less Easily Fluctuating Water Temps At Those Depths?

[esoxaddict]

I've read and heard that the ideal water temperature for muskies is in the 68 - 72 degree range. (that's 20 - 22 for you guys in Canada, eh) So maybe these movements in cold springs are them trying to find the warmest water. Makes sense that the shallow areas would be subject to rapid decreases in temperature from a few really cold nights, and not warm up much on dark days. Whether it's forage, water temperature, or recovering from the spawn doesn't matter as much as knowing that it happens, and that it happens more often during unusually cold springs.

So we've covered the post spawn period.

Ok, so what next? The water is warming up, the weeds have grown in nicely... This is what, the early July timeframe in a typical year? What surface temperatures are you finding when the fish transition into the shallow structure? And how long do the fish usually stay in these areas?

[Bill Hedden]

This discussion of seasonal patterns has been very informative, but I have a different question that I'd like to hear the experts discuss: When you are standing on the dock in the morning getting ready to go out fishing, what are the factors running through your mind as you plan where you want to go on that particular day? How are your plans shaped by those air and water temperatures, and that wind and weather forecast? Just for example, what conditions would make you decide to go into the West Arm? or to Portage Bay? or to decide that you have run to the big lake? How does the weather affect what kinds of structures you want to fish? Heck, I'd be interested in the most general analysis saying, well, with a north wind you ought to give serious consideration to fishing this part of the lake, and with a west wind think of this other area and so forth.

For the most part, when we get to AML we can pretty quickly learn from the staff what baits have been working and whether the fish are relating to weeds or rocks or both, or if some other pattern, like holding off deep edges is in play; but it is a big lake and it seems to me that with a given set of weather conditions not all weed beds or rocks are created equal. Any wisdom would be appreciated.
Bill Hedden

[DanR]

Bill,

Honestly, there's no "secrets" at AML. Having fished with all of the guides, plus some other fine folks from the musky world, I'm coming to the conclusion that most of the time us "regular" musky fisherman over-analyze and obsess over stuff that doesn't matter. Everyone has their own preferences based on their experiences.

I've had days where we were headed out and I was thinking, "This overcast stuff was great down in this area in the past"...and we didn't see much. Same goes for sunny. A few years ago, we had some nice winds and went down to a certain area of the lake where we'd had success in those winds...nothing.

More stories:
In 2007, we fished a weedbed. Didn't see anything. My buddy Chuck came in there with a different guide & they pulled out a 50.5" within 5-10 minutes after us.

In 2005, we were seeing lots of good fish on famous Coleman's Reef. We hit it three times. Steve Schwengel and his dad were working the reef at different times that day too (we didn't know this). Turns out they were seeing/working what became Steve Schwengel's 50lber at ~4pm that day. Our boat never saw that particular fish!!! Even weirder...turns out both boats, without talking to each other, figured out that Perch Depth Raider was working that day in that area of the lake. How does one explain same spot/area with same bait...totally different results?

In 2006, a guest who was sitting at our table was fishing with his brother and a guide. While on the spot, one of the Cowgirls was showing a bunch of fish. The other color wasn't. Mid-spot they switched baits. First cast, the bait that hadn't drawn a follow all day gets cranked up by a 55".

Last year, 3 50"+ (my 54", Chuck's 50", and someone else's 52.5") were caught by AML guests within 1.5 hours, between 8:30-10AM...IN DIFFERENT AREAS of the lake.

So what is going on? This kind of stuff is crazy and keeps us up at night. But I really think on Eagle boat control and casting presentation is huge. Most people know the certain and famous areas that hold fish. Herbie once told me when we didn't see fish on a certain spot, "We were casting over them. Gauranteed." Hes also said to me many times, "Those fish move in and out of here." I totally "see" this happening now. Fish are going to be efficient as predators. Maximum value/meal for minimum effort. Some days, it really may take great boat control and pinpoint casts to the spot on the spot to get a reaction from a fish; these days boatside maneuvers are key to boating fish. Other days, fish are more active and moving around, up on and off spots. Those are the days you see lots of fish, and you can get some to go.

I know what I've posted is not a "pattern". But it really is what I've noticed over the years. Fish good to great spots. Learn them expertly and through experience. Figure out the spot(s) on the spot. Cast to those spots accurately (with the baits that the staff tells you have been working). And just keep hitting those spots. On that last note, there are people who will fish maybe a half dozen spots all day. They just keep hitting them at different times. At some point...they connect. There are windows of activity everywhere.

There's no right or wrong answers. Everyone does it differently. I am by no means an "expert". Far from it. This is just my 2 cents & experience after 8 years of fishing the lake with many great folks, some of whom are now good friends.

-Dan

[esoxaddict]

I can't add much here with my whopping 12 days of experience on Eagle.

But I do have a few observations based on fishing with and talking to Herbie, Cal, Mike, Scott, Darcy, and Travis.


We've caught fish on our third pass through a spot, we've caught fish on spots after watching other boats work them just an hour earlier, we've come back to a spot and caught fish at 3:00 that we worked early, several others fished during the day, and now *wham* there's a fish.

The bottom line is that there are just THAT MANY fish moving in and out of these spots on a day to day basis, you just never know what's going to be there or what's going to be hungry. You might come through 1/2 hour after someone else, with a different lure, different color, maybe working the bait a little deeper, and that's the ticket. That fish could have been there all day, and just now decided to eat, or it could have just moved up there for the first time. The "community spots" are no secret, and they just keep on producing fish. Coleman's might be the dead sea from time to time, but a good spot is a good spot. Eventually when you come through there WILL be a fish there.

If I were going to just head out without a plan on any given day? I'd find those areas that fish travel through, back and forth, like the deep channels between islands for example. You can pick apart the map and find the deep water, find the adjacent structure, pick out whatever they can use that's nearby to grab a quick meal or just hang out in the rocks. I got my biggest fish over on McCall's, 5 minutes from camp. You don't even have to leave Myers Bay to find big muskies. Whether it's Colemans, Three Sisters, Gull, Heiting's, Burndt, Skye... When I'm up the first week of August it's like a merry go round, and more often than not we're seeing fish on ALL of those spots at one time or another.

The only advice I can give in my limited experience is get out there and start chuckin baits. If you start moving fish, wherever you are? Get your map, mark the spot, mark a waypoint, and find another similar spot close by and go fish it. I don't know, but I don't think actually FINDING fish on Eagle is difficult at all. Getting them to eat? Well... that's another story!
In regards to specific weather contitions, wind, etc?? I'll let the pros talk about that.

Last point:

It seems to me the guides at AML are working fish as often as they are working spots. A lot of communication going on back and forth there, sharing patterns, sightings, where big fish have been moving, and a lot of respect for each other as well. I've seen a lot of the guys avoid a spot in the morning because they know one of the other guides is headed there to chase a big fish. I've seen them pull up to another boat andsay "We just moved a Jumbo over on ____" There are no secrets at AML. Whoever said that was spot on!

[Steve Herbeck]

we have "general" ideas based on past experiences when to be where based on time of the season,weather and sun intensity,wind direction and for how long it been blowing,etc.etc., AND A WHOLE LOT ON HUNCHES AND WHATS BEEN GOING ON THE PRIOR DAY/DAYS,and also importantly what type of info has been coming and being observed.
as i've said many times sometimes you get it right and you look like a hero,sometimes not and you look like a zero but thats what makes fishing the sport it is the challenge and the mind games.

[DanR]

we have "general" ideas based on past experiences when to be where based on time of the season,weather and sun intensity,wind direction and for how long it been blowing,etc.etc., AND A WHOLE LOT ON HUNCHES AND WHATS BEEN GOING ON THE PRIOR DAY/DAYS,and also importantly what type of info has been coming and being observed.
as i've said many times sometimes you get it right and you look like a hero,sometimes not and you look like a zero but thats what makes fishing the sport it is the challenge and the mind games.

Two comments:
1.)I think the last few days of wind, if it's been consistent, is extremely important as you noted above. It's huge. If you remember, it had been blowing N/NW for the day and a half or so before that wonderful morning we shared last year. I'm sure that's why you decided to start where we did. In fact, I think I remember you actually saying that on the way out.

2.)you are too modest Herbie. You say that some days you look like zero. I say, "No way". All those days I've spent with you, your guides, and guys like Donnie and Craig (and others, you know who you are)...I would never call days we didn't boat fish a "zero". I ALWAYS took something away whether we boated a fish or not. And believe it or not, it was the culmination of all of that experience WITH YOU GUYS (FISH OR NOT) that got us where we wound up last year. No doubt. Heck, some of the best days I've ever had fishing were not necessarily days where a fish was boated.

Thanks again man, just for being you and the wealth of knowledge. And for being willing to share it all with us regular guys. I've been day dreaming at work about us downing some Crown and shootin' the sh!t in a few months!!! Cannot wait for the good times in 2009.

-Dan

[DCates]

Gotta agree with DanR! I learn more in one day in the boat with Herbie (fish or no fish) than in my 10 years of fishing Eagle pre-AML.

[DanR]

Gotta agree with DanR! I learn more in one day in the boat with Herbie (fish or no fish) than in my 10 years of fishing Eagle pre-AML.

100% true. I've been fishing Muskies since 1987. I went to AML lodge for the first time in 2002. I call 1987-2001 "The Dark Age". Herbie and his guides (and a few of my friends who I met at AML) whom I fished with brought me into what I now fondly refer to as the "Age of Enlightenment".

Is it August yet?

[Bink]

Steveo,
Regardless What You Are Talking About Doing Is Always A Pattern To Check Out,you Got Cover Most Likely On A Break Line So It's A Hwy And A Stop Sign,food,and Those Depths Have Some Security And A Common Depth Muskies Travel And Hang At So It's A Good Choice To Hit Regardless.
% Wise Under Most Conditions Most Of The Time Most Of Your Positively Feeding Musky Activity Will Be Under 20' Or They Will Come Up Regardless If Your Fishing In 4' Or Over 100' Of Water.
Doesn't Mean They Have To Be In 20' Of Water Or Less Though.
Of Course There Are Always Exceptions Especially In 2 Story Fisheries And Just Before And After Turnover So Keep Open Minded.
What I Was Talking About Happens All Season Long Really Just Most Think Early Season Has To Be All Shallow Water.
Shallower Dark Water Lakes Ya But Not Always So With Deeper Clearer Lakes And It Can Be A Definate Movement Made Not An Exception.

Steve,
Thanks for the great info, sure sound like spoonplugging would be a great way to check things out.