Time for a new hobby.

[Red Childress]

Can anyone see a problem if I use 6-8 feet of 80lb. fluoro to a 1-3ft. 150lb fluoro bite tippet??

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

I'm not sure that it would be an issue. However, when building a leader, the stiffest section is usually connected directly to the flyline to help turn the fly over during the cast. If that balance is out of whack, the leader will basically fold or collapse during the cast and probably cause the fly to get tangled. However, if you have the materials on-hand, I'd give it a try. Like I said, there are as many configurations of fly leaders as there are for conventional gear. I would recommend going with as short a leader as possible. As I mentioned, I only use about 3-4' of the mono on my intermediate lines with the clear tips connected to about a foot of bit tippet.

That shorter leader helps quite a bit with casting and also not having to pull as much of the leader through the eyes when you're doing a boatside maneuver. I still have nighmares over a big (big for me is mid-40's LOL) fish lost that hit on the 8 because a knot in my leader got stuck on the last eye of the rod!! I've since changed knots and will hopefully not have that happen again!!


Jay

[Red Childress]

Since I could not wait for my new leader material to arrive before I tried casting practice, I just hodge-podged a leader together that I thought might work just to cast around in my yard today. I ended up going with 4 feet of 150 fluro tied direct to my clear fly-line then I just tied a regular leader/swivel/snap at the end of that and then a 6 inch pike fly which is the only one I own currently. I now realize that this will not work when it come time to strip cuz of the knot sticking in the guide for fig-8 stuff so I will definitely shorten the leader down to 2.5 feet or so to allow for the fig-8.

So I watched a 2 minute "how to fly cast" video on YouTube (and also took a quick nap at my local Holiday Inn Express) and then headed to the yard for my first performance...........after about 30 minutes I was getting 52-55 feet out there so I am happy for now. I think I might be able to get another 10 feet once I am standing higher above ground zero in the bow of my boat.

Last questions for now: Are you guys using a snap to attach the fly to the leader or do you have to re-tie a loop knot each time you switch flies? Are there any swivels anywhere in the leader set-up? Will I be OK in attaching a 2.5 feet of 150# fluoro directly to my fly-line and then just snap on a fly and go fish or what?? My rationale is that the longer and heavier fluro I use, the more whip (and deeper presentation relative to the water column) and further casting distance I can get.........is this accurate??

[ThreeRiversEsox]

The longer the leader that you have on an intermediate or sinking line, the less depth you'll get because the line doesn't have the chance to draw the fly down. With casting, keeping in mind you are essentially casting the flyline with the leader/fly being weightless, the longer the leader and heavier the fly the less chance you will get it to turn over. You need the fly to turn over for accurancy and maximum distance.

Lest you forget that once you put that flyrod in the boat, you will be cursed with 25-40 mph winds for the first few tries!! Glad to hear of the interest in fly chasing musky hunters.

[Red Childress]

Thanks for the reply!

Forgive my ingnorance, but if I use fluoro only instead of mono won't that help sink the fly faster since the fluoro sinks and mono floats?

In reading about what others are using for leaders, I noticed several guys using a long mono leader from the mainline and then tapering to fluoro/wire bite tippet........why have 4-6 feet of that 30-60 pound floating mono in front of the shorter, sinking bite tippet material?? Isn't there going to be a big knot to reel thru the front guide if using that longer monofilament leader in front of the bite tippet??

[ppalko]

Definitely will second the curse of the 40 MPH wind, however, in the case of using fly rods, the wind need only be 15 mph to drive you crazy and cause a few flies to act as scud missles near the boat on a cast. You'll be doing good if you only hit yourself in the head with a fly once or twice.... I use a floating line (which sinks a bit anyway) and about 6 feet of leader (40 lb maxima or so) and then attach a bit guard (about a foot to 18 inches long). The longer the leader, the harder to cast. I tend to go on the lighter side for a leader. I think a real stiff leader is going to be harder to cast. How is the leader being attached to the fly-line? There are a few options. If you use a nail-knot and coat it with epoxy, you can allow the leader to slide through the guides. I'd bet there a limts however on how heavy the line can get before a nail knot is impossible. Anything that can catch will be a diaster waiting to happen....you have enough of those with a fly rod already anyway.

It depends on my mood, but I'll pre-rig flies with a loop or leader or make a leader using a snap and swivel (heavy fluorocarbon..80 lbs or wire (I need to look up that titanium stuff) sometimes. You don't want changing flies to be an ordeal which is why I like a snap or loop. I'll bet the salt water guys have some better ideas how to make this work, especially those catching sharks.

Phil

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

First off, thats a great distance you're getting on the cast. To be honest, you normally wont need more than that. The longer the cast, the more difficult it is to get a good hookset. I probably spend most of my time casting in the 30-50' range.

Up until this year, I mainly tied my bite wire directly to my flies. Early on, I tried some small snaps but they just didn't feel reliable and they would cause the front of my surface flies to sink. However, they worked well on the streamers. Over the last couple of years, I didn't have any swivels in my leader at all because they threw the balance of the leader out of whack. Everything was a knot connection or a crimp connection. However, the bite wire I've used this year have a swivel to connect to the mono and a snap for the fly end. As I mentioned, they have worked well on the fish that I landed on them so far. But i have yet to tangle with a real heavy fish with them. That will be the true test.

You could probably get away with a 2.5' leader but I'd still recommend 3-4' plus the tipett. If you haven't learned it yet, I'd look into tying a nail-knot. The diameter after being tied is about the same as your flyline. Once you get the knot tied, put some fly-head cement (or something similar) over the knot to round it off. After it sets, you should be able to run that through the rod guides with no issues. It takes a little practice to get everything just right, but it works out pretty well. That knot also works great as an indicator when you're fishing in low light conditions. You can hear/feel the "tick" of it passing through the guide and you know its time for the figure-8.

SOunds like you're ready to get into some fish already. I'd take that setup to the water and start flailing away. No better feedback on your setup than a fish (any fish) comin up and smackin that fly!! LOL

[ttabaleulb]

Here is a link to the bite wire that I have been using for this season. Of course its the leader without the hook attached to it. LOL Although know that I think about it, this could be a way to tie some flies with the leader already incorporated. Hmm

http://www.americanfishingwire.com/bleedingleaders.asp

[Red Childress]

Jay,

You said, "You could probably get away with a 2.5' leader but I'd still recommend 3-4' plus the tipett."

What is the reason for suggesting I should go with a longer leader that is already coming off a clear fly line?? I was thinking about just connecting my fluoro to the fly line and making that my bite tippet......no knots to reel thru the guides just the loop knot that connects the fly line to the fluoro then a snap to connect my flies on the business end. Once I strip down to the loop knot (or whatever knot you guys suggest I tie), that signifies it is time for a fig-8 and re-cast. (Remember, I just learned how to cast 18 hours ago!)

I am concerned about having 3-4 feet plus the tipett when it comes time to fig-8........how are you guys managing to do a decent fig-8 with 4+ feet of line hanging off your rod??

[InTheDrift]

Red: The only issue you may have with the heavy leaders would be actually breaking the fly line on a snag. Most fly line cores on bigger lines break at around 30 pounds, so I try to keep my system around that. Most of the time, its not a concern, but I would hate to have to climb a tree to save a fly line! You can put a lot of pressure on a fish with 25 lb fluoro, but a few fish this weekend had me considering going heavier...

[ppalko]

http://www.flyfishsaltwaters.com/big...he_fly_rod.htm

Completely agree with the issue of breaking the fly-line on a snag if you're using 150 # leader. Fly line is a little expensive. The guys catching sharks use a much lighter tippet. Part of the skill to be learned will be how to actually land a musky once you hook it. I seem to recall the first steelhead I hooked on fly rod many moons ago and the shear panic that occurred as lined burned off the reel.....The first musky I got on fly rod hit at the boat and went immediately toward my trolling motor with the line...how I ever landed the darn thing I'll never know. I probably looked like I was trying to land a whale even though the fish was around 30 inches.

try landing carp on 3x tippet.....humbling experience at best.

Phil

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

The length and stiffness of the leader come into play in the presentation of the fly on the cast. Sure, you could have just a couple of feet of leader but the cast will probably hit the water awkwardly. For Musky/Pike, its not really a big deal. however, when it comes to shooting flies up under overhanging branches and the like, that leader helps quite a bit to turn the fly over and go those extra few feet. Its tough to explain without being able to see it in person.

For the figure-8, out of a 5' leader, I pull about 3' of that through the guides and maneuver with the remaining leader. As you can imagine, once you have too much leader out, the flyrod just doesn't have alot of spine to do an efficient Figure-8.

As I've mentioned, there are a ton of different ways to set up your gear. After you try a few, you'll start to get a feel for what you prefer and what might work best for you're style of fishing. My recommendations are just things that are working for me right now. Seems I change up a thing or 2 every season

[Red Childress]

Now I get it........you guys are pulling the knot thru the guides....makes perfect sense. Using that much mono in front of the bite tippet is to allow the fly to hit the water the "right" way.........understand that one too.

Things are making more sense now regarding the dynamics of the line and how it needs to hit the water. The only thing that keeps happening to me while casting is that my main line will wrap around the butt of the rod once I get 35-40 feet of it whipping around........my guess is that I am getting my arm too far away from my body during the cast. I am having to hold the rod up in the air so high so I can keep the fly off the ground. Does this happen to you guys sometimes??

[ttabaleulb]

Its definitely gonna take you a little bit to get used to the physics of throwin that line around, especially with big flies on it. There are a couple of casting techniques that you will benefit greatly from. They are the single and double hauls. I'd have to type a book to try and explain them. I'm sure there are videos on youtube to give you an idea of what is involved. Both of those techniques will help keep your fly off the ground because you won;t have as much line out because you will be "shooting" it instead. That will make more sense once you see a video too. LOL Personally, I use a combo/hybrid haul that uses what I call at water-haul and single haul mix. That one I'd pretty much have to show you. It ain't pretty but it gets the job done. I still end up slappin the water now and then mainly on my backcast because I am either getting lazy or tired with the casting.

Another product to have that will help with casting is a line dressing/cleaning material. Its quite amazing how dirty your line gets in just a few hours worth of fishing. Hit it with the dressing and the line just flies through the guides. First couple of years I chased Musky, I didn't use that stuff. Now, I wouldn't want to be without it.

[Red Childress]

I have a few clients who like to hit the water while casting to increase the weight of the fly. I have a feeling that I am already "hauling" while I cast. I am getting together with a fly guy on Wednesday so I can melt his eardrums with all my questions.

[ppalko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkrLF17ubNg
(double hauling)

Thought this one was appropriate.

I'd love to know what hybrid casting methods I actually use considering I fish everything from a 3 wt on a brookie stream to a 10 wt on a lake.

All this "talk" is getting me fired up to tie some new flies.


Phil

[ppalko]

http://midcurrent.com/techniques/the-belgian-cast/

Here's another article....this sounds a lot like what I tend to do! Glad it has a name.

Just a thought...does anyone use a casting basket to keep line "organized"? I tend to wade and cast more than I cast from a boat but when I cast from the boat (canoe) it can get ugly if I don't pay attention.

Phil

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

Hitting the water with the fly to increase the weight on the line is what I do and I guess I call a "water-haul". it basically cuts my false casting in half. I try to do one false cast (maybe 2) into the water, use that as my "water-haul" and shoot the line where I want it. that really helps me over the long run to save the casting arm.

Thats a great double haul video!! I specifically like the part where he teaches with no rod in his hands. I think thats great practice for the rhythm!! LOL I'm gettin all fired up about this too. I might have to see if I can sneak another day or 2 on the water this weekend before Winter takes a hold!!

InTheDrift,

I almost forgot to mention, AWESOME pics man!! Along with this discussion, seeing those pictures has me about busting at the seams!! I NEED TOOTHY CRITTERS!!!

[ttabaleulb]

Phil,

I have not tried a casting blanket. Not sure I've even heard of that to be honest. I did buy a line basket that fits on my hip. I tried that thing a couple of times and it just ended up pissing me off. Apparently, my strip length is a lot longer than most people because my hand always ended up well below the lip of that thing. I found myself screwing up my retrieve because I was so worried about making sure that everything was going into the basket. At this point, I let the line lay right on the boat floor where I am casting. yes, it gets tangled now and then and yes, I step on the shit now and then too but overall it works out fairly well. If the winds start getting around 15-20mph, I find that if I can kneel in the front of the boat, it helps out big time to keep the line from flying all over the place.

Damn I love this sport!!!

[Red Childress]

About half of the fly guys I get in the boat use a stripping basket (a.k.a....5 dollar laundry basket from WalMart) with a little water in the bottom of it.

After watching some YouTube stuff last nite, I was going to paste a clip on here but I see it is already on here (Red's Fly Shop video)........getting ready to hit the yard again this morning as soon as the frost melts off to practice it. I am home again with a sick kid so I may as well do something constructive while she sleeps.

[ttabaleulb]

Heres some more tie-able bit wire that sounds interesting. This guy definitely seems to be a big fan of it.

Red,

Did you get a chance to get some questions answered with the fly-guys from last week?

[ttabaleulb]

Guess its a good idea if I include a link, huh? LMAO

http://www.wetieit.com/store/index.p...&productId=164

[Red Childress]

Sorry about the late reply.........I am finally back to work today after my youngest caught the sickness from her sister and has finally healed The stuff you guys posted here is finally making sense to me after some hands-on experimentation of my own.

Thanks for all the info, fellas! My learning curve has been drastically reduced.

[Red Childress]

I have not had a chance to watch this yet but I bet it is pretty good:



http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/10/...magic-at-work/

[ppalko]

That looked like fun! No need to strip set on that hit.

[ttabaleulb]

Oh man, that was AWESOME!! That scenario they caught on film is exactly what makes this sport so addictive for me. Seein that fish drill the bait right there at the boat is fantastic. I'm hopin to get my own footage like that with the GoPro this year. Man I cannot wait to get out on the water!!

[Red Childress]

This Pole Dancer has some nice moves:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJT5ei8WEvQ

[ppalko]

I've started tying some. Like many musky flies, you'll need "bags" of fur to complete it. It is nice and easy to tie. The "Hang-time" is another cool pattern but it's a little harder since it needs various feathers and furs. Like buying lures, this "habit" too can become quite expensive....and I have yet to cast a fly this year.

[ttabaleulb]

You betcha!! That fly rocks! I have one season in of using that fly and got a ton of action on it. I can't wait to get that thing back in the water. I basically have one of the rods set up with one of the Pole Dancers at all times. Both Tigers and Pures seem to love those things. To be honest, I was about ready to almost give up on topwater flies for Musky until I started throwin these things. I just wasn't gettin a lot of action on the other flies I was throwing. The cool thing is that even if this thing is submerged, its still pushin A LOT of water and has great action. I've been using them with my intermediate sinking line and like to play around with that aspect of it if the fish don't seem too interested in it just being on the surface. Its a pretty versatile fly.

[ppalko]

I was thinking of Charles' Musky Angel in my post...I do want to buy and couple of the pole dancers however. My shoulder is warmed up and ready.....

[ttabaleulb]

Red, have you had much of a chance to throw any flies at the toothy critters yet this Spring? Just curious how that side of things is goin for ya. Its a good thing I got one trip in a few weeks back cause it looks like I might not get another chance to head out until the beginning of May. I think I might implode by then. I got the new 10wt setup and a few new flies that are just rarin to go. Now all I need is some time on the water!!

BTW, I'm psyched to try out the Floating Sharkskin flyline I got for that rod. I'll give a review of it once I've had some time on the water with it.

[Red Childress]

I have not used my flyrod on the water yet. It looks like I will have to wait until school is out before I can really get serious with the fly stuff via on-the-water-combat. Things are just too busy around here right now and my first fly trip is not until June so practicing in the yard will likely be the extent of it for a while. Juggling 2 kids in 2 sports at 2 different times has transformed my privately owned truck into a Taxi Service.

Believe me when the time comes, I will fully immerse myself into this thing and not stop until I am proficient or I have my first shoulder surgery. Please keep us posted with your results!

On a side note, we did raise 5 fish today in 5 hours, briefly got the hooks into 2 of them and subsequently lost them. We had more monster trout follows than musky follows too.

[ttabaleulb]

LOL I can certainly understand that. Thats awesome that you guys are moving some fish!

Can't remember if I mentioned what setup I bought. I got an 9' 10wt Echo Ion along with one of their Large Arbor reels. I've heard a lot of good things about those rods for Musky and Pike. AND, they are less expensive than a lot of others out there. So, I'll give my thoughts on that too when I can.

I know I've threatened it before, but this is THE year that I plan to use ONLY the Flyrod gear. So far, I have one trip in and it was all flies. We'll see how it goes when things start gettin tough. LOL