2 Walleye Bag limit on Flowage for 2011

[Don Pemble]

Here we go again folks, just picked up the latest Lakeland Times Newspaper regarding bag limits on local lakes, seems the Chips are in need of more walleye this year due to the poor economy, like it isn't for all people. Tribal President Tom Maulson along with our newly appointed DNR Secretary Cathy Stepp have agreed on a 2 (Walleye)fish limit on the TFF along with a few other lakes in other counties, when will the raping of our lakes stop? When you catch a fish (legally) by hook and line, you can release it if it's not of legal size or the size that you want to keep, pretty hard to release one that will survive if it was ?(legally)? speared???? My question is this, was the DNR secretary Cathy Stepp appointed or was she elected? When will the voters of Wisconsin have the right or the voice to elect someone who will back, or have the backbone to give equal rights to all? Why is it that we legally licensed fishermen and women who have paid for their fishing licenses can't help their fellow fisherman catch their bag limit when it's alright for the LDF Chips to help with the Mole Lake Chips with theirs, not just SUSPICIONS ON MY part, thats the way it's printed in the paper. Non tribal members can group hunt to get your deer but not the same if your in the same boat and fishing and trying to get your limits. If it's alright for them, then it's alright for all.

Need some help on this one, this isn't about side imaging or who's got all the rights, by the way, I live in the USA, not some sovereign nation hiding behind some old treaty that even our Governor or all the Higher UP's are not willing to discuss.

My first amendment rights were just revealed, would love to hear yours.

One more remark on my part, I'm still guiding this year but on a very limited basis, I will work on more than one body of water to insure your bag limit of walleye, or will spend time locating smallmouth, largemouth, and also big panfish or pike on the TFF. The economy not only effects the sovereign nations, but also the local resort owners who have tried for years to make ends meet and have hard times like anyone else, and they only have 5 video games to help them out along with a local guide or two, not to mention some of the greatest people and food you want to encounter at these beautiful resorts.

God bless the USA, and write the Governor and let him know your thoughts, or better yet, post your reply and let everyone know how you feel, I did.

[Orrsfishing]

Hi Don,
Hope you are doing well. I would have to agree with you. A 2 fish limit is going to keep a certain percentage of fishermen away from our area. With gas prices, jobs and misfortune all beating people down, this is not what we needed to hear.
I also can not agree with you more about the fact that we NEED a real good voice in Madison. Someone who is an outdoorsman and understands the way things really are and not what they read in some idiots report. We need to get someone in there with a brain and a spine.
It bothers me to see how making up for things that happened 200+ years ago or trying to make things "equal" end up screwing the rest of us the hard way.
Bobby

[DPW Guy]

I am not one to try to influence big governmental decisions because what can just one person do, right? But this issue has got my attention like few others. Resort owners, Chamber organisations, land owners and sportsmen statewide should be outraged that it would appear we are being sold out by the DNR secretary. If the limits are indeed being reduced on the TFF (and probably other bodies of water) I will attempt to at least get a message out to those I hope might be listening. Whether you consider yourself a Rep. or a Dem., look up the email addresses of those you think can help. The State of Wis link is:
http://www.wisconsin.gov/state/core/government.html

I am sorry, I know this web site should not be used for any political purpose, but I know this will not be the last posting that will talk about this.

[Musky Mauler]

Let’s not mix apples and oranges here. There are two separate considerations at work. One is the fact that a legal agreement is in place. Both parties are obligated to abide by that agreement. It’s not the DNR nor any elected or appointed legislative representatives in government who call this shot. It’s the legal system and the courts. And, thank goodness for that! We have the finest legal system in all the world. The last thing we should want to do is to nullify that system! The courts have ruled that the agreement was entered into in good faith, and that it must be honored. So be it. There’s no sense whining about the agreement or the decision rendered by the court. The honorable thing to do is to abide by it, and leave the sour grapes at home.

As for the two-walleye limit, that’s the responsibility of the DNR. Note that I say, “responsibility.” They are charged with the responsibility of protecting the resource that we all enjoy so much - - namely the fish population in the TFF. If you want to continue to enjoy walleye fishing in the TFF, and if you want future generations to do so as well, then you’d better be glad that the DNR is protecting that resource for you.

There used to be a sardine industry in Monterey, California. You don’t have to read Steinbeck’s books to realize that it is no longer there. They were so greedy that they fished-out the sardines, and the industry collapsed. There used to be a mullet industry in southwest Florida. They, too, got so greedy that they fished the mullet almost nonexistence. That industry, too, has collapsed. And, the former mullet fisherman have had no success at their subsequent attempts at oyster farming, either.

If you want to see the “resort industry” or “vacation industry” collapse in the TFF area, then go ahead and coerce the powers-that-be into raising the walleye limit back up to five a day. Whoopee! Wouldn’t that be GREAT? Then watch how soon there are no more walleyes, no more customers for fishing guides, and no more vacationers flocking to this lovely paradise that we all enjoy so much. It’s time to “man up” and take it in stride. Here’s hoping it’ll be better next year. Too bad Al and Millie Weseman aren’t running the trout farm anymore. That way we could still easily get a limit of five delicious trout per day. In the meantime, let’s hope that the DNR is saving the walleye population for us. This, as I see it, is the other side of the coin.

[George]

I'm not really sure what went on in the negotiations with the Chips on the walleye thing, but it does appear that there is another agenda at work here. If you consider that Cathy Stepp comes from a family owned construction business and has appointed Matt Morney, an attorney and former director of the Metropolitan Builders of Greater Milwaukee as her Deputy Secretary and has gone on record as describing the DNR as anti-development, anti-transportation and pro-garter snake, then I think you can sense what's going on here. In this weakend economy there are places on the TFF that are on the edge of financial collapse making them ripe for the developers to buy them up and build those luxury condos. Now I realize this is a bit much, but not totally out of the realm of possibility. Like one state representative said...Putting Cathy Stepp in charge of the DNR is like putting Lindsay Lohan in charge of a rehab center. I'm just concerned that there is way more on the line here than a 2 walleye bag limit.

[George G]

Hi Don, I thought the DNR makes their call on posession by hook and line fishermen after spearing is done based upon their harvest. The TFF has to be iced over yet, how can they determine the posession limit if no spearing is done yet. That shakes me up. I am confuesd, and irritated maybe is the more propper description. Oh Man, still comming up though, just to make Porky and Shane happy, and get a giggle out of Dale. All great people, like your self.

[Bartender Jim]

I know it has been discussed here before but once again the DNR presents no alternative to lowering the bag limit. How about establishing a minimum size or a slot limit instead? Seems like they just agree with what the tribe says and that is that.

Our group will still be up there for opener because we would rather be fishing there than anywhere else. The TFF is a special place we look forward to visting every spring. Besides, it's tradition! We'll catch our limit and then work on becoming better perch and crappie fishermen. Nothing wrong with that.

[teenfisher]

well musky mauler, u definetely put more confidence into the dnr than i do. i don't understand why more than 1 tribe needs to spear a lake. last spring, 3 tribes (mole, ldf and some other i don't know) speared over 500 walleyes in butternut lake in price county when its usually only the ldf tribe that spears and its only around 100 or 200 fish. i don't know why the natives are suddenly trying to really hurt the lakes like never before but its not good. if only the wisconsin people had enough organization and will to boycott the casinos....

[GJB]

I cannot agree with Teenfishers comments more. Here are the facts:

-The DNR and the LDF tribe negotiated an agreement to ensure a 3 fish limit on all lakes. The Tribe received some benefits (i.e license sales). The big benefit is obviously the generous gaming pacts all tribes have.
-Tribes across the region cannot agree so if they all declare the same lake there goes the 3 fish limit and the agreement.

If the sportsmen and sportswomen that live in and recreate in Wisconsin generate any income for the casinos of the State, we deserve what we get.

BTC - Boycott the casinos. That should be a rallying cry. I would like to see BTC postings on any landing that have a 2 walleye limit.

[jon malone]

with a limit of 2 most of your guide trips will take less than an hour

[john brennan]

Don't anyone kid themselves. The casinos don't matter. It's no better now than 20 years ago..just a nice school building..that's it. The Gov gives the Tribes plenty of money and an air conditioner to just sit around. It works best that way. Keep them reliant on the Gov and they will never amount to anything. Down here in Chicago we have reservations also. We just call it the Ghetto. Same thing. Give them a check, some free cheese, (Walleye) and keep them dependent on the Gov. It continues to promote discrimination. I have heard for so many years about the spearing. I have also heard for years about the excess of fish taken opening weekend. What can be done? It would be great for one year, no spearing and no opener for another month. Give the fish a chance to spawn and then hide. How many fry would make it? I remember hearing about 20 years ago that the locals would line up their boats all night long at the launch. Put the boat in and then take the boat out. Occupy the launch ALL night long so that the Spearing can't take place, simply keep them off of the water. Look what happened in Madison. Block the access and they will go somewhere else. Pretty simple?

[henrym.h.]

Don, I am looking forward to flyfishing as you suggested. Will this limit that you complain about (based only upon your rights) affect my success? Henry

[Randy]

Thanks for posting the article Blue.

The Lac du Flambeau is declaring 21,893 walleys on 255 lakes. The number they are declaring is more this year due to the poor economy.

Let's be generous here and assume each walleye will yield one pound of fillets. Let's also be generous and assume the value of that pound of fillets to be $8. That puts the total take of the LDF spearing harvest at $175,144. That revenue is spread out over 255 lakes. That's $686 per lake. Anyone interested in buying them out?????????

If they're spearing out of spite and not for the money our course of action as sportsmen should also be one of spite and we should completely boycott the casinos.

If the natives completely think it through their increased spearing will already cost them money at the casinos even without a boycott. Less people will visit the northwoods as their favorite lakes have reduced bag limits and curiously their casinos won't be as busy. In essence, they're spearing themselves in the foot. No pun intended.

[George]

I was not inferring that DNR Secy. Stepp had somehow entered into a conspiracy with the Chips. Although rereading what I wrote, I see how you could come out that door. What I meant was; it appears that we have a DNR Secretary with a different set of priorities. To be blunt, she could care less about how many walleyes are harvested on the the TFF or who harvests them. We look at the TFF as a great natural resource that should be protected and preserved for our children and grandchildren. The danger I see with our new secretary is that she and her deputy see places like the TFF as a great natural resource that is underdeveloped. I'm not saying this is going to happen, I'm just saying we need to keep our eyes open.

One last thing. Blue is exactly right on the treaty. It was negotiated long before the TFF was created. Primary interests back then would have involved logging, not recreation. My attorney friends tell me that in contract law any ambguities most always are decided against the party who wrote the contract. In short, we wrote the treaty; all the Chips did was sign it. Any unintentioned ramifications of the wording is on us, not them. Is that lousy? Yes, but it is what it is.

[DonH]

Interesting premise.

Makes one come to the conclusion that the indians have been spearing themselves in the foot for over 20 years. I believe a good part of their motivation to spear is simply because they can and they know it has a negative impact on a lot of people (call it spite).

Thinking it through, I believe the people impacted most negatively might just be the indians themselves. For over a decade my dad brought our family up for a week every summer (stayed at O'Meara's) and then I started bringing my family (including Randy) up for a week (stayed at Idle Shores, the old O'Meara's) and we did that until about 1990. The flowage was really jumping back then. Had to be over a dozen resorts and all the cabins were filled all summer. At night the bars were nuts.

If the indians had left well enough alone, I wonder how many of those people would have spent their evenings at a casino? I bet a lot of them. The people visiting the lakes in that area today is nothing but a fraction of what it used to be, and what it could still have been.

I sure hope they're enjoying their "tribal rights".

[Don Pemble]

Don, I am looking forward to flyfishing as you suggested. Will this limit that you complain about (based only upon your rights) affect my success? Henry

Henry,

I have fly fished the flowage many times, especially during the big mayfly hatch and had great success, not only on smallies and panfish, but on walleyes also. It was during the time when the flowage was drawn down at least 6 to 8 feet, and come spring when the ice went out there were dead fish all over that died due to lack of oxygen. Several friends and I not only fly fished the shallows but did it wearing waders or hip boots and not only caught some very nice fish, but also found many crankbaits and jigs snagged on the once submerged stumps, just had to wear a mask to hide the smell of decaying fish. The water levels at one time to be exact was so low that you had a very difficult time trying to launch a boat. We spent hours if not days wading around the shorelines fishing the deep pockets, catching fish and retreiving baits. And by the way, this 2 bag limit that we are looking at not only affects me and my rights, but all other guides, resort and cabin owners, and the general public who pay not only higher gas prices to get up here, but the same price for a fishing lisence as last year and only able to keep 2 eyes. Help me out on this one. Will it affect your success, that all depends on how many eyes are speared and how much time you put in, once you have your limit of eyes, there's plenty of panfish to fill the void.

Good luck to you, and by the way, I did here today that the water level on the flowage has come up 10 inches, can't confirm it, but let's hope it's true.

[The Jar]

My family has owned a cabin on the TFF for 11 years now and this would be a huge disappointment. It is certainly harder for us to make the weekend trip with gas prices at $3.75 but if me, my father and 2 brothers can only keep 8 walleyes..... That isn't enough for a good fish fry for us and the 3 women back at the cabin. Looks like we'll have to cook more potatoes. REALLY makes ya think why when the TAXES need to be paid. I'll be hiring a guide to better understand Perch and Crappie fishing on the TFF now. My father hired Don Pemble the first year we had the place and everything we learned was absolutely priceless!!

[BlueRanger]

I think I have the answer - you just need to market yourself as the guy who can teach people how to catch bigger walleyes so the 2 fish they keep this year will outweigh the 3 they were keeping last year.

It really is sad that some local businesses may suffer as a result of factors like this that they have no control over. On the other hand, it seems even more sad that anybody would consider passing up a chance to spend time on the TFF over 1 walleye a day.

[waldowillie]

Well with the possibility of a limit of 2 walleye/day and $3.75/gal for gas I will probably only make the 600 mile trip up there for just 2 weeks this year instead of 4 weeks. But there is good news. Read this morning that they just raised the walleye limit on the lake 60 miles from my house from 5/day to 6/day. Will still be up for the friends and beauty of the TFF area.



http://www.dailytribune.com/articles...0276949340.txt

[George G]

I would have to believe that spearing has not started yet, I am sure the ice is still there. How can the set a limit with out knowing how many were speared. Will they maybe change it to 3 after the results or in, or maybe 1, who knows. Would love to have some one answer this for me.

[BlueRanger]

Read my 3/31 post below. No, it won't go down to 1. The 2 fish limit is based on them spearing the full declared harvest, and that's the number of permits they will issue.

[jsdavey]

I don't know if anyone looked at the updated Ceded territory bag limits for 2011 walleyes, but according to the DNR report, the Turtle-Flambeau Flowage has a walleye bag limit of (3) not (2)?

[Hot Runr Guy]

I don't know if anyone looked at the updated Ceded territory bag limits for 2011 walleyes, but according to the DNR report, the Turtle-Flambeau Flowage has a walleye bag limit of (3) not (2)?

the only DNR listing I could find is for the 2010-2011 year that ended March 6th, 2011
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/fish/regu...mitsforweb.pdf

HRG

[bunczak]

After reading the posts here, I thought some information might be useful- There is a relatively new situation which Don Pemble's original post touches on, but I think should be explained further.

First some background:

The Voight decision from the 1980s is what allows the tribes a variety of rights that most other citizens do not have. These include spearing walleyes, among other things. The Voight decision set up a fairly complicated system which I will try to simplify here.

Each body of water has an "allowed harvest" that is set each year based on population surveys, etc. This "allowed harvest" is then apportioned between spearers and hook and line anglers. Lets say that lake X has an "allowed harvest" of 1,000 walleyes per year. In early spring, the various Chippewa bands declare how many of that 1,000 they think they are going to spear. If they declare a total of 1,000 between them, the opening day hook and line bag limit will be 0 for that lake. If they state they will not spear lake X at all, the hook and line bag limit will be 5.

After the spearing season is done and the actual harvest is known, the bag limits are re-adjusted (generally just before Memorial day weekend). So, if on lake X, the bands declared their intent to spear a total of 800 walleyes, but only took 100, the bag limit will be revised upward. This is why some lakes have a different bag limit in the summer than they do opening weekend. Don's original post talked about the possibility of a two fish bag limit for the TFF for 2011, based on the declared take.

Historically, the LDF band has declared and speared on the lakes near their reservation and the Mole Lake band has declared and speared close to theirs.

Shortly after the Voight decision, the DNR- realizing that the tribes could declare the maximum from every lake in the ceded territory (all of northern WI) and realizing that this would be very bad for businesses in the area, struck a deal with the LDF band. The LDF band does not have Tom M. in it and has generally not been as militant about treaty rights, plus their traditional territory includes many of the most popular and famous lakes in northern WI such as the Minocqua chain, TFF, Big and Little Arbor Vitae, etc, etc. The deal was this- The LDF band could sell fishing licenses, which are good statewide, but not give any of the money to the state. In return, the LDF band agreed to limit their declarations and harvest from lakes in their area such that the hook and line bag limit would be 3 or more. The sales of this license give the LDF about $100,000 per year.

This system has lasted for a number of years, but as casino revenue has grown in importance, the $100,000 has started to look pretty small in comparision to more liberal spearing limits.

Therefore, about three years ago, the leadership of the LDF band wanted to get rid of this arrangement and put it to a vote of their members. Turnout for the vote was very poor and it failed by a very small margin (1 vote if I remember correctly). The very next year, the Mole Lake band began to declare their intent to spear a number of lakes in traditional LDF territory. This is important because the tribes can "share" their spearing quota. To use my earlier example, if the LDF declared their intent to spear 200 walleyes on lake X, the Mole Lake could declare their intent to spear up to 800 walleyes from the same lake, but give those rights to the LDF. The LDF could then repay the Mole Lake by doing the same thing on lakes in Forest County or eastern Vilas. That is exactly what happened last year on a number of important lakes such as Big Arbor Vitae and the Minocqua chain. The LDF band can say that it was not their declarations that caused the reduced bag limits, but it was their spears that made it occur.

What some want the DNR secretary to do is call the LDF's bluff on this and say they are not living up to the spirit of the original deal. Thus far, it appears that she has not. However, from the LDF tribal leadership's point of view, this is a "Heads I win, Tails you lose situation." If the state calls them out and they lose on the issue, the tribal leaders get what they originally wanted, which is a suspension of the 3 fish bag limit for license sales deal. If the state does not call their bluff, they get to have their cake (the $100,000) and eat it (the walleyes) too.

So, no matter how you look at it, it appears that the spearing take from lakes in the Ceded territory is likely to rise in the future. This will result in reduced bag limits for hook and line anglers, especially on opening day.

There is not much that can be done about this. The tribes are not going to give up their rights without being given something very major in return. That something is likely to be a lot of money. The state is not going to give up money for this because they need every dollar they can get to try to balance the budget. There are some (Tom M.), who would probably not want to give up their treaty rights for all the money in the world. They actually have a pretty good financial situation right now, so it is unlikely that even the offer of substantially more money would carry the day on this issue. The political reality is that we fishermen do not have the muscle necessary to win on this issue any time soon (if ever).

I hope this helps clarify the issue.

[The Frog caster]

Seems the Blue Ranger has it figured, and we shouldn't worry about the bag limit. The gas prices ultimately will dampen vistors to the north woods. We are Americans, and can overcome any adversity. I do feel sorry for the locals who depend on game fishing for a living ie: resort owners, guides etc. Personaly, I release all game fish and hope someone else snags the same fish at a future date. If it's the bag limit that bothers you, stop by my place this summer in Mercer, and I'll treat ya to a nice fish fry at the "Pines" in downtown Mercer as I'm sure Irv will be glad to have us. Best Regards, Larry (the frog caster) .......... After making a BOLD statement like that I sure hope no one takes me up on my offer !!!!!

[DPW Guy]

Been doing the second week of the season since before the whole craziness started (early eighties). Have heard all the yearly "rumors" over those many years about the Native Americans and all the 'deals' going on. Had to learn all the spring walleye tricks to be successful. Used a guide in the early years to gain knowledge. Later traded info with them to help them (if I could) to do better with their new clients. Weather was a variable. Water level was a variable. Limit allowed was a variable.

Guess what! Some things never change! The things that really matter!

The friendships you make. The stories of the conquests. The beauty of the TFF. Those are the reasons you come back every year no matter what.

You guys that live farther away (even south of the border), come back no matter what the limit is. Hire a guide to show you how to find those fish in early spring. Support the resort owners and restaurants.

You guys that live/work up there are the really lucky ones. Thanks for providing all the insights you do each spring.
The rest of us should not get caught up in the yearly battles. We should be content to share the resource and just enjoy the experience as often as we can. I hope to enjoy it for as many more years as I can and introduce as many new TFF fishermen as I can.

Now---let's instead focus on a little more water; some decent weather with a favorable wind come early May; every resort full of fishermen; a cold adult beverage and, if we are lucky, a few fish in the live well for that occasional fish fry. I can't eat more than two anyway.

[Flambeau Vista Retreat LLC]

My neighbor on Lake Bastine was fishing yesterday and reported 24" of ice. The smaller lakes will open before the TFF. The spearing quotas may be met on other lakes before the TFF opens possibly resulting in a lower spearing harvest from the TFF.

[Bobber Down]

Boycott the casinos? What's taken you guys so long. I take my gambling money to Vegas. I never could figure out the double standard and refuse to support the tribes. As for the limit reduction, I guess it is only one less fish per day. Better chance for me to say: "I caught my limit." For me, fishing is just one of the perks. We always bring plenty to eat when camping but fried walleye sure tastes good!

[smallmouth99]

Can someone tell me what the rules are for wis. If I am there for a week and get my limit of 2 each day, can I have 14 walleye in the cooler to bring home?
Same way with all fish? or can I only have one days catch at any one time?