2 Walleye Bag limit on Flowage for 2011

[Hot Runr Guy]

Can someone tell me what the rules are for wis. If I am there for a week and get my limit of 2 each day, can I have 14 walleye in the cooler to bring home?
Same way with all fish? or can I only have one days catch at any one time?

From here: http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/faq/posses.htm

What is the possession limit? How does it vary from the bag limit?
Answer: The possession limit is the maximum number of a species that you can control, transport, etc., at any time. It is twice the daily bag limit.

The daily bag limit is the maximum number that you can keep in one day (i.e., 12:00 AM to 11:59 PM) of fishing. Fish not immediately released (i.e., prior to transport) are part of an angler's daily bag limit. An angler may not possess in excess of the daily bag limit for the water while on the waters, banks or shores of that water.

For example, if the daily bag limit for a species is 5, the most you could possess or control (i.e., in your freezer, cooler, vehicle, etc.) would be 10, no matter how many days you fished. Therefore, you could only bring home your possession limit of 10.

Once you reach your limit for a species, you must stop fishing for that species. This includes catch and release.

Exceptions:
•In the ceded territory, no person may exceed a total daily bag limit of 5 walleyes and no person may possess more than the possession limit of 10 walleyes. This enables anglers to fish multiple lakes with reduced bag limits. For example, if you fish a lake in the ceded territory with a bag limit of 3 walleye, you may then go on to a lake with a reduced bag limit and catch and harvest 2 more walleye. Thus, you would remain within the daily bag limit of 5 walleye. The possession limit remains 10 walleye.

•Also in the ceded territory, no person may possess fish on any water in excess of the daily bag limit or under the size limit for that water while fishing. Basically, this allows anglers to transport fish across waters with reduced daily bag lmits as long as they do not stop and fish.


Looks to me, if you are going to have more than 4 walleyes/person in the freezer, you better have the name of a nearby lake memorized, that has a 5-bag limit, just in case the possesion police show up!
HRG

[Musky Mauler]

By the way, agreements CAN be modified. Of course, modifying the ceded territory agreement would necessitate a willingness on the part of BOTH parties to the agreement (the affected Indians and the U.S. Government).

On the other hand if an interested party on one side continually refers to the other side as "crooks, spiteful bistads, underserving lowlifes, rotten conspirators" and other distasteful terms, that other side might not EVER be inclined to sit down to negotiate a possible and "reasonable" change to the current, age-old ceded territory agreement. A modification that could possibly even result in a "win-win" change that could be beneficial for both sides.

Going to "war" by boycotting casinos and spewing forth vitriolic accusations is certainly NOT conducive to ever realizing a change to the status quo. I don't think that such mudslinging will cause the affected Indians to beg the Government to negotiate a change to the ceded territory agreement. If anything, it'll probaby stiffen their resolve to absolutely NEVER agree to any such change. As tough as it might be to do so, perhaps we should tone down the rhetoric a bit. It should be apparent that it's only counter-productive. I fully support the right of everyone to express their own opinion in their own way. But it might behoove us to examine the effect that such expressions might have on the situation. Is what we're about to say REALLy beneficial? Of is it just tossing another log onto the fire?

By the way, the fact that TFF wasn't here when the agreement was made is immaterial. After all, it must be remembered that none of the walleyes swimming around today were here back then, either. The agreement did NOT apply only to the waters or the fish that were in existence at that time. The agreement goes on ad infinitim. There is no "time limit" or expiration date.

[mkoeh475]

Do the indians spear the lakes on the Res?

[Mark Benson]

Do the indians spear the lakes on the Res?

Yes, and during times when GLIFWIC is trying to net walleyes from Reservation lakes to hatch the eggs to restock waters that they spear, the tribal police are trying to catch them as violators as well.

Mark

[mkoeh475]

Yes, and during times when GLIFWIC is trying to net walleyes from Reservation lakes to hatch the eggs to restock waters that they spear, the tribal police are trying to catch them as violators as well.

Mark

So are both spearing and netting frowned upon there?


Larry - No need to buy a fish fry, but I'd be more than happy to meet up at the Pines for a drink Irv, Chuck, and the bunch are good people.


Matt

[jsdavey]

I don't know if anyone looked at the updated Ceded territory bag limits for 2011 walleyes, but according to the DNR report, the Turtle-Flambeau Flowage has a walleye bag limit of (3) not (2)?

[Hot Runr Guy]

I don't know if anyone looked at the updated Ceded territory bag limits for 2011 walleyes, but according to the DNR report, the Turtle-Flambeau Flowage has a walleye bag limit of (3) not (2)?

the only DNR listing I could find is for the 2010-2011 year that ended March 6th, 2011
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/fish/regu...mitsforweb.pdf

HRG

[bunczak]

After reading the posts here, I thought some information might be useful- There is a relatively new situation which Don Pemble's original post touches on, but I think should be explained further.

First some background:

The Voight decision from the 1980s is what allows the tribes a variety of rights that most other citizens do not have. These include spearing walleyes, among other things. The Voight decision set up a fairly complicated system which I will try to simplify here.

Each body of water has an "allowed harvest" that is set each year based on population surveys, etc. This "allowed harvest" is then apportioned between spearers and hook and line anglers. Lets say that lake X has an "allowed harvest" of 1,000 walleyes per year. In early spring, the various Chippewa bands declare how many of that 1,000 they think they are going to spear. If they declare a total of 1,000 between them, the opening day hook and line bag limit will be 0 for that lake. If they state they will not spear lake X at all, the hook and line bag limit will be 5.

After the spearing season is done and the actual harvest is known, the bag limits are re-adjusted (generally just before Memorial day weekend). So, if on lake X, the bands declared their intent to spear a total of 800 walleyes, but only took 100, the bag limit will be revised upward. This is why some lakes have a different bag limit in the summer than they do opening weekend. Don's original post talked about the possibility of a two fish bag limit for the TFF for 2011, based on the declared take.

Historically, the LDF band has declared and speared on the lakes near their reservation and the Mole Lake band has declared and speared close to theirs.

Shortly after the Voight decision, the DNR- realizing that the tribes could declare the maximum from every lake in the ceded territory (all of northern WI) and realizing that this would be very bad for businesses in the area, struck a deal with the LDF band. The LDF band does not have Tom M. in it and has generally not been as militant about treaty rights, plus their traditional territory includes many of the most popular and famous lakes in northern WI such as the Minocqua chain, TFF, Big and Little Arbor Vitae, etc, etc. The deal was this- The LDF band could sell fishing licenses, which are good statewide, but not give any of the money to the state. In return, the LDF band agreed to limit their declarations and harvest from lakes in their area such that the hook and line bag limit would be 3 or more. The sales of this license give the LDF about $100,000 per year.

This system has lasted for a number of years, but as casino revenue has grown in importance, the $100,000 has started to look pretty small in comparision to more liberal spearing limits.

Therefore, about three years ago, the leadership of the LDF band wanted to get rid of this arrangement and put it to a vote of their members. Turnout for the vote was very poor and it failed by a very small margin (1 vote if I remember correctly). The very next year, the Mole Lake band began to declare their intent to spear a number of lakes in traditional LDF territory. This is important because the tribes can "share" their spearing quota. To use my earlier example, if the LDF declared their intent to spear 200 walleyes on lake X, the Mole Lake could declare their intent to spear up to 800 walleyes from the same lake, but give those rights to the LDF. The LDF could then repay the Mole Lake by doing the same thing on lakes in Forest County or eastern Vilas. That is exactly what happened last year on a number of important lakes such as Big Arbor Vitae and the Minocqua chain. The LDF band can say that it was not their declarations that caused the reduced bag limits, but it was their spears that made it occur.

What some want the DNR secretary to do is call the LDF's bluff on this and say they are not living up to the spirit of the original deal. Thus far, it appears that she has not. However, from the LDF tribal leadership's point of view, this is a "Heads I win, Tails you lose situation." If the state calls them out and they lose on the issue, the tribal leaders get what they originally wanted, which is a suspension of the 3 fish bag limit for license sales deal. If the state does not call their bluff, they get to have their cake (the $100,000) and eat it (the walleyes) too.

So, no matter how you look at it, it appears that the spearing take from lakes in the Ceded territory is likely to rise in the future. This will result in reduced bag limits for hook and line anglers, especially on opening day.

There is not much that can be done about this. The tribes are not going to give up their rights without being given something very major in return. That something is likely to be a lot of money. The state is not going to give up money for this because they need every dollar they can get to try to balance the budget. There are some (Tom M.), who would probably not want to give up their treaty rights for all the money in the world. They actually have a pretty good financial situation right now, so it is unlikely that even the offer of substantially more money would carry the day on this issue. The political reality is that we fishermen do not have the muscle necessary to win on this issue any time soon (if ever).

I hope this helps clarify the issue.

[Mark Benson]

So are both spearing and netting frowned upon there?


Larry - No need to buy a fish fry, but I'd be more than happy to meet up at the Pines for a drink Irv, Chuck, and the bunch are good people.


Matt

Matt:

The netting is unlike other locations where the netting is done to remove fish for what I assume is a food source. The netting on the LDF lakes is so that the Great Lakes Indian Fish & Wildlife can raise the eggs from the fish and then restock all of the lakes that are speared or in general need stocking.

Mark

[Mark Benson]

the only DNR listing I could find is for the 2010-2011 year that ended March 6th, 2011
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/fish/regu...mitsforweb.pdf

HRG

The confusion here stems from the bag limits set for the season ending 2011, not the upcoming 2011-2012. I want to read bunczak's post before going any further.

Mark

[fishking]

If daily bag limit 2 possesion limit is 2 times the daily bag limit or 4 fish. So you can only keep 4 fish even if you fish 10 days. Unless you eat the fish as you go.

[Hot Runr Guy]

If daily bag limit 2 possesion limit is 2 times the daily bag limit or 4 fish. So you can only keep 4 fish even if you fish 10 days. Unless you eat the fish as you go.

Look at the "exceptions" in bold in one of my postings above. The possesion limit (in your freezer) is 10 fish, since while the TFF may have a 2-fish bag limit, other lakes in the vicinity may have a 5-fish limit. There's no way to identify what lake your filets came from.
While you're on the water, and fishing, the 2-fish limit applies.

HRG

[bunczak]

You also are allowed to fish more than one body of water in a day. Therefore, you can catch 2 from the TFF, and 2 or 3 more from another lake (if legal on that lake), up to your statewide limit of 5 per day. Therefore, the possession limit is double the statewide bag or 10.

[smallmouth99]

I have to solution. Add one or two dollars to the cost of fishing liscense. Split the money between the tribs, let them buy groceries with the money (more food to the dollar than walleye) Let then line fish like the rest of us with a 10 walleye per person per year limit. Then open up all of wis to 5 fish limit.

[beelzebob]

It's not about a 1 fish reduction in the walleye bag. What it is about is a decades long erosion of the previously economical and enjoyable outdoor sports. It's about seeing no bucks in years of northwoods hunting, exorbitant property taxes and permit fee structures taking over the northern counties, decreased limits and seasons on fish, and a regulation for everything you do, may do, or have even thought of doing. The northwoods held appeal for the common man (that's me) - you didn't need much to have a great, uncomplicated time. In the past maybe you could shrug off the high gas prices or other economic hardships to get away, it was worth it. You know what, it's not worth it anymore. It's not worth the frustration, the money, and it's especially not worth the arguing.

[DonH]

I totally understand your pain. I also think back happily on the good old days, but I also have an idea where we're headed. As the population continues to grow, and wild spaces and resources continue to decline, we do need increased regulations on what we have left to protect it. It's been mentioned here that some of the large campsites are reservable for a daily fee. Are we that far away from needing a reservation and paying a daily fee on all the campsites, large or small on the TFF?

Anyone on the TFF on opening weekend (any weekend actually) that notices a boat catching walleyes, heading in, then coming back out to catch more fish, should report that boat to the DNR as possible fishermen breaking the law. You are not tattling on anyone, you are protecting the resource. You are actually being a Steward of the TFF.

I also disagree with you beelzebob on whether it's still worth it or not. It is totally, 100% worth it. In fact it might be more worth it today than ever! For our group, getting away together takes on a greater meaning every year. None of us are getting any younger, and having a few days to share with your sons, dads and close friends is really important. We've discussed this, and all agree that it's not about the fish. Don't get me wrong. When we have success and catch a bunch of fish, we have a blast, but we also have a great time on days we get skunked.

Having said that, sure I'd love to have the walleye limit at 5 per day, but since those days (the good old days) are gone, I'm still hoping it ends up being 3 rather than 2 fish this year.

[St Croix Kid]

is there not a huge walleye hatchery up there ran by the LDF? why don't they just raise and take them out of there?

[jossy10]

it's because "our" people came to their land, raped and killed their people. i don't think a bag limit of 2 walleyes is too much of a concession. sometimes it's easy to get caught up in what seems right and wrong, fair or not fair, but i think it's easy to see this one...

[Hot Runr Guy]

Anyone on the TFF on opening weekend (any weekend actually) that notices a boat catching walleyes, heading in, then coming back out to catch more fish, should report that boat to the DNR as possible fishermen breaking the law. You are not tattling on anyone, you are protecting the resource. You are actually being a Steward of the TFF.

DonH,
I'm all for abiding by the law, and protecting the resource, but how does the DNR prove anyone is going out for a 2nd bag limit? Once those fish are off the water, how can they tell they came from the TFF, and not a 5-limit lake?

With the state having a 10 fish in-possesion limit, they would have to be sitting at the dock, and recording fish being taken off the boat each time it comes in. Sounds impossible to me to police.

HRG

[DonH]

They actually ran a sting operation on the TFF during opening weekend a few years ago. I believe DNR agents sat on islands or in boats and with telescopes and viewed certain boats doing exactly what I mention. They came out, caught a limit, headed in to clean them, and were back out within a short time to catch another limit. After several trips, the DNR followed them to the cabin, counted the fillets, and busted them.

They had watched these boats and were 100% certain that all the fish in the freezer were caught on the TFF. They were most likely over the 10 fish possession limit also.

I'm sure someone can post a more accurate description of what happened and how it went down, but it did happen as it was reported in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel.

[Mark Benson]

DonH,
I'm all for abiding by the law, and protecting the resource, but how does the DNR prove anyone is going out for a 2nd bag limit? Once those fish are off the water, how can they tell they came from the TFF, and not a 5-limit lake?

With the state having a 10 fish in-possesion limit, they would have to be sitting at the dock, and recording fish being taken off the boat each time it comes in. Sounds impossible to me to police.

HRG

HRG:

Seriously??? Those guys have all the great equipment that our armed services do... and DonH is right, if they think they got something going, there will be more than one of them to collaborate the deal and make sure they get their conviction. Very similar to the gentlemen who were catching crappies for the church fish fry in Milwaukee last spring.

And I for one have the tip number in my cell phone and do not hesitate to use it...

Mark

[bunczak]

If you would like to learn more about the 2 walleye bag limit for the TFF and 9other lakes in the area for 2011, read the current issue of the Wisconsin Outdoor News. On page 3 is Dean Bortz's column which deals with this and on page 3 and 4 is DNR secretary Cathy Stepp's letter which addresses it too. There is way too much in those columns for me to write here, but she apparently did attempt to call the LDF and Mole Lake's bluff on this issue like I mentioned in my earlier post, but just like I mentioned earlier, she had no leverage since many in tribal leadership want to have the higher spearing limits.

Bortz's column brings up something that I was not aware of- The Mole Lake band has a large bond payment due soon. He mentions $40-$50 million dollars. He does not say this, but I believe that is the bond they issued when purchasing the former Crandon mine property from the Connor family. So, it appears that the Mole Lake band has a strong financial motivation to flex their spearing muscles on this issue. You can see this by the fact that the 10 lakes they chose to bring down to a 2 walleye limit for 2011 are the largest and most well known walleye lakes in the area- The TFF, Bearskin, Minocqua, Squirrel, Willow flowage, Big St. Germain, Plum, Squaw, Trout and Tomahawk. Some of these are not the state's greatest walleye habitat, but they are chosen for maximum political impact.

Get ready for more political/financial excitement on this issue.

[Orrsfishing]

Hey,
You have a daily bag (2) a state bag (5) and then a posession limit. The posession limit is twice your daily bag. So for the Flowage you can have (4) walleye in your posession total. If you fish multiple waters you can get up to that (5) a day and posess (10) total. You also need to have them in seperate bags and clearly marked. It is a big confusing pain in the butt... but there ya go.

[Hot Runr Guy]

They actually ran a sting operation on the TFF during opening weekend a few years ago. I believe DNR agents sat on islands or in boats and with telescopes and viewed certain boats doing exactly what I mention. They came out, caught a limit, headed in to clean them, and were back out within a short time to catch another limit. After several trips, the DNR followed them to the cabin, counted the fillets, and busted them.

They had watched these boats and were 100% certain that all the fish in the freezer were caught on the TFF. They were most likely over the 10 fish possession limit also.

I'm sure someone can post a more accurate description of what happened and how it went down, but it did happen as it was reported in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel.

Cool! But, I guess I'm going to have to look around a bit more before I pee over the side,,,,,,,,,,

Thanks for the info. Good to know they're looking out for our favorite place on earth.
HRG

[The Frog caster]

Hey guys, I think Don H. summed it up best ...... It's really all about the fishing, not the bag limit. It's the privilage we have of the use of our natural recources. As Don states, our world is not the same. Population pressures on our land have encroached on the pristine land that is left in our state. What does that equate to ? ......... you already know. Let's put it this way, more people more idiots. If ALL the fisherman abidded by the rules we wouldn't need so many "DNR" enforcement people, right ? ......... 98% of all the fisherman I've met are "stand-up" guys (and gals), but the remaining 2% can be idiots. Garbage tossed into the water, beer bottles, oil cans etc. is part of the reason the DNR has a clamp on us. More people= more laws....agree ? It's easy to blame the Gov't for everything that's wrong. Or to say the white man took the Indian's land ages ago, therefore we owe them... I'm of German decent and I don't blame the Roman Empire for conquering Germania back in the 5th century !!!! So let's do like Don H. suggests, remember the old days and play the cards we are dealt today! Best regards, Larry F.

[jossy10]

...........

Hey guys, I think Don H. summed it up best ...... It's really all about the fishing, not the bag limit. It's the privilage we have of the use of our natural recources. As Don states, our world is not the same. Population pressures on our land have encroached on the pristine land that is left in our state. What does that equate to ? ......... you already know. Let's put it this way, more people more idiots. If ALL the fisherman abidded by the rules we wouldn't need so many "DNR" enforcement people, right ? ......... 98% of all the fisherman I've met are "stand-up" guys (and gals), but the remaining 2% can be idiots. Garbage tossed into the water, beer bottles, oil cans etc. is part of the reason the DNR has a clamp on us. More people= more laws....agree ? It's easy to blame the Gov't for everything that's wrong. Or to say the white man took the Indian's land ages ago, therefore we owe them... I'm of German decent and I don't blame the Roman Empire for conquering Germania back in the 5th century !!!! So let's do like Don H. suggests, remember the old days and play the cards we are dealt today! Best regards, Larry F.

[ski2313]

Apparently cabin fever is starting to set in for the TFF goers. This thread was a highly entertaining read, especially the parts regarding conspiracy theories! Plenty of posts ripe with hypocrisy as well.. And as always, Blue inserts himself as the voice of reason, facts, logic, and objectivity.

2 fish... 3 fish... I could care less. I'll be here on the TFF no matter what.

Some men fish their whole lives without realizing that it's not the fish they are after.. -Henry David Thoreau

[bupa]

I think the guides/resorts should focus more on multi species fishing.The walleye is a great eater but a boring fighter.Why not focus on the fighting smallies or numerous pike?I live in southeastern wisconsin and find the promotion of the TFF to be lacking!If you want to bring back tourism(money)you have to do a better job of promoting the re sources you have its NOT just walleyes.What about the beauty and serenity of the area?The wonderful camping?The nice people and great resorts.From what i see some places need to make their prices more reasonable.This isn't a boom time for vacationers.The sooner people realize they may have to make changes to draw tourists the better for your economy!600 or 700 dollars for a week is not going to draw people.I have looked at some places availability charts and they look pretty sad!As much as some people are resistant to change you must adapt or you could fail.Just some thoughts from an "outsider " who loves the TFF.
Good luck and God bless all, Bob S.

[Mark Benson]

bupa:

It is a double edged sword and, without considering any one's rates, I would consider $600-$700 rates for a week to very reasonable!!! More marketing may be necessary, but you can't operate and not cover expenses. Those rates sound like the same for the last ten years???

Mark

[St Croix Kid]

i spend a couple of weeks a year over by Hayward. 600 bucks a week for a cabin is a steal compared to over there. i, for one, am glad it's not like Hayward by the TFF. not a ton of other things to do but fish but I like it.

[Orrsfishing]

Wow Bupa... I am trying to figure out what one of your many wrong remarks to start with.
From the top:
1) The guides/resorts need to focus on multi species... As guides and resorts, we focus on what customers want. Not what we tell them they should want. Many people love to fish for bass, some for panfish and some for muskies. Most people who come here and want a meal, want a limit of walleye. I am sure Don can back that up. We are as multi species as we can get!! If fishermen are allowed fewer and fewer walleye, then they will find other places to go to catch them where they are allowed more. Maybe not all, but a percentage. In this economy, we can not afford to let another percentage get away, for any reason.
2) You find the promotion of the TFF to be lacking... I call bull on this one too. We have ads in multiple magazines, emails are sent out by the hundreds by the chamber. We attended at least 5 different sport shows earlier this year. Go to one. You will see us there. We DO NOT promote one business or one kind of fish. We promote everything we have!!! What do most people want to know about... Walleye, Bass and panfish.. A bigger percentage for muskies all of the time. We promote the hell out of the camping, the restaurants, the lodging, the nice people and the true beauty of the area.
3) The one that truely pisses me off. From what you see, some of us need to make our prices more reasonable... WHAT??? In our area, we have lodging available from 450ish a week to a couple thousand a week. We cover the entire spectrum. Again, at the shows we promote ALL of them. Who in the hell do you think you are to try to tell someone up here to drop their prices?!? The people who have lodging here already have to worry about people cancelling because of job loss, gas prices, poor economy in general and now a 2 walleye limit. We have mortgages to pay, an ever rising gas and electric bill, taxes, advertising and always more upkeep. You want us to lower prices? GET A CLUE!!! We are as inexpensive as we can get!! How much would you like us to drop the rates BOB?? Make everything 300 a week and see how long we last?!? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
We have adapted a hundred times and will never be able to adapt enough to satisfy the people who are never happy and who think they can always do it better and want it cheaper.
Next time you decide to make a comment, how about if you have a clue as to what you are talking about or just keep your mouth shut.

[mkoeh475]

You said it perfect. I'd like to see him run a resort run for $300/week

[Don Pemble]

Hey ORR,

Why did you go so easy on Bupa, let him know how you really feel. Good job anyway.

[bupa]

Wow! Sorry i opened a can of whoop ass.I didnt mean any harm just suggestions.I love the tff as much as anyone!!!I dont think i deserved the NASTY replys i got.Did i hit a nerve or what? I humbly ask your forgiveness!I wonder if i was right on some of comments judgiing from some of the vitriollic responses i got. Once again i am sorry.
God bless all,Bob S.
P.S. Mark and Kid thanks for your nicer replys.

[bupa]

One more thing-down south where i live if i mention the turtle flambeau area most people say _Wheres that????? Never heard of it.